That PBS documentary was /is an exaggeration and mischaracterisation on the events from my second hand sources some 30 years ago, although it does illustrate the excessive abuse of federal powers then and even more so today.
Nothing should ever be accepted verbatim but I thought it a good start. I watched it straight after after watching the fictionalised 'Waco' series which can also act as a good introduction. The next step there would be a 15 hour audiobook I have but it will be a while before I find the time.
In Waco the fed pumped alcohal based CS gas into the structure that is highly flammable of which it's use in that instance was prohibited and a breach of federal training standards and application and procedures for its proper usage. For enclosures CN spray that is water based and not flammable contained in small handheld canisters was mandated for this purpose. Because CN was not available for them they used a large dispersment aerosol machine of the highly flammable alcohal based CS gas that was then pump into the Waco structure that most probably caused the spontaneous combustion.
All this shit happened decades ago and today there are by far more greater threat
assessments facing today's state and federal law enforcement agencies. White Separatist have rights no different then any other ethnic group in America, that doesn't make them a hate group or some racist supremacist following. Ruby Rdge Waco were gross injustices and travesties inflicted by the federal government that even now creates fear and mistrust among many of Americas in their federal government.
That is a interesting question I needed time to continplate. I would surmise it as another example of a continued dismantling americas Bill of Rights in respect to free assembly. Whereas Neoliberal policies even then worked to force the creation of a homogeneous society void of self expression and separation.
I didn't see the PBS documentary to which you refer, but thank you for drawing attention to the incident. A good reminder that sometimes people who are just trying to get away and are minding their own business get attacked by the authorities or stationary bandits - whatever you choose to call them. Getting away isn't so simple, if it's even an option these days. People are not so different from chickens and turkeys; always picking on each other. (Lacking feathers, but that's a minor detail.)
What an outrage! When my wife and I were traveling across the country, we stopped in Bonner's Ferry. The road to get up the hill is called Ruby Creek Road. We talked to people who witnessed the massacre. BAD TASTE for government in Bonner's Ferry! For example, in Idaho, if you actually call the sheriff, THEY WILL NOT STEP FOOT ON YOUR PROPERTY unless you come to the line and give them permission! The wrongful death hearing that Randy won was in Bonner's Ferry.
The ATF claims that in 1989, Faderley purchased two illegally shortened shotguns from Randy Weaver. However, Weaver disputes this, saying that the shotguns he sold Faderley were entirely legal and were shortened after the fact. The notes from the case show that Faderley purchased the guns and showed Weaver where to shorten them, which would constitute illegal entrapment. What’s more, the government preyed on the destitute nature of the Weavers, who lived in a small cabin in the woods with no electricity or running water.
In June 1990, Faderley’s cover was blown. It was then that the ATF reached out to Weaver, stating that they had evidence he was dealing illegal firearms. They told him they would drop all charges if he would agree to become their new informant regarding the investigation of the Aryan Nations groups in the area. Weaver refused.
To coerce him into changing his mind, the Feds staged a stunt where a broken down couple were at the side of the road. Weaver stopped to help them and was handcuffed, thrown face down in the snow and arrested. He had to post his home as bond. Still he refused to become a federal informant.
To coerce him into changing his mind, the Feds staged a stunt where a broken down couple were at the side of the road. Weaver stopped to help them and was handcuffed, thrown face down in the snow and arrested. He had to post his home as bond. Still he refused to become a federal informant.
The irony of the federal government’s desire to obtain informants within the Aryan Nations is that different branches of federal law enforcement and intelligence gathering occupied five of the six key positions in the organization. This means that the Aryan Nations were effectively a government-run shop, with agents spying on each other to ensure the integrity of an investigation – into an organization almost entirely run by the federal government.
David Gottfried, Assistant General Counsel Gottfried is an instructor at the FBI Academy:
"Proactively identifying criminal activity in its infancy raises unique concerns. Can law enforcement officials exploit an individual’s mere desire to kill tens of thousands of innocent people and even facilitate the commission of the crime right up until the last second, controlling the unfolding events to ensure that the perpetrators remain unaware they are dealing with undercover agents? Where is the line between an individual’s thoughts and desires and criminal activity?
The answer to these questions requires an understanding of an important legal principle—entrapment. Prosecutors will attempt to refute claims of entrapment in the courtroom, but, actually, cases are won or lost in the planning stages of the investigation. In other words, law enforcement officers play a critical role in conducting an investigation in a manner that prevents the successful assertion of entrapment. The consequence of a successful entrapment defense—the acquittal of an otherwise guilty defendant—is unacceptable. Understanding the contours of the entrapment defense and factoring this into the planning phases of an investigation can make the difference between a successful attack on the government’s case and a guilty plea.
Certain investigative techniques used by law enforcement raise the likelihood of the assertion of an entrapment defense. Perhaps, the highest probability of an entrapment defense arises in undercover operations. Law enforcement agencies need not shy away from using undercover operations, but they must structure them carefully. Terrorist recruits susceptible to undercover agents also will be susceptible to real terrorists. This shows the importance of undercover agents recruiting these individuals first. Executed properly, undercover operations—even those in which law enforcement provides both the means and the opportunity for an individual to succeed in committing a “terrorist act”—are entrapment proof. This article examines the history of the concept of entrapment and demonstrates the importance of structuring an investigation in anticipation of an entrapment defense..."
While pursuing my criminal justice degree I decided to take a para legal course thinking it would be interesting, that and the entire class were all girls. I last until the first exam then quit and none the girls would have anything to do me even being the stud I was! Studying Law is serious book work, fuck that!
Interesting. Other examples. The FBI involvement in the alleged kidnapping plot of Gov. Whitmer is pretty murky. A few years ago, I believe over $5 MILLION was spent to "catch" an Amish farmer in PA selling milk in Maryland.
That PBS documentary was /is an exaggeration and mischaracterisation on the events from my second hand sources some 30 years ago, although it does illustrate the excessive abuse of federal powers then and even more so today.
Nothing should ever be accepted verbatim but I thought it a good start. I watched it straight after after watching the fictionalised 'Waco' series which can also act as a good introduction. The next step there would be a 15 hour audiobook I have but it will be a while before I find the time.
In Waco the fed pumped alcohal based CS gas into the structure that is highly flammable of which it's use in that instance was prohibited and a breach of federal training standards and application and procedures for its proper usage. For enclosures CN spray that is water based and not flammable contained in small handheld canisters was mandated for this purpose. Because CN was not available for them they used a large dispersment aerosol machine of the highly flammable alcohal based CS gas that was then pump into the Waco structure that most probably caused the spontaneous combustion.
The cause of the fire was one of the areas of dispute that I wanted to look into. I need to live to at least 1000 to get through my to-do lists.
Look if you must but I seriously doubt you will find what I have just described in some detail.
All this shit happened decades ago and today there are by far more greater threat
assessments facing today's state and federal law enforcement agencies. White Separatist have rights no different then any other ethnic group in America, that doesn't make them a hate group or some racist supremacist following. Ruby Rdge Waco were gross injustices and travesties inflicted by the federal government that even now creates fear and mistrust among many of Americas in their federal government.
It's interesting how the State sees a difference between religious separation and colour separation, respectively protecting and fighting.
That is a interesting question I needed time to continplate. I would surmise it as another example of a continued dismantling americas Bill of Rights in respect to free assembly. Whereas Neoliberal policies even then worked to force the creation of a homogeneous society void of self expression and separation.
I didn't see the PBS documentary to which you refer, but thank you for drawing attention to the incident. A good reminder that sometimes people who are just trying to get away and are minding their own business get attacked by the authorities or stationary bandits - whatever you choose to call them. Getting away isn't so simple, if it's even an option these days. People are not so different from chickens and turkeys; always picking on each other. (Lacking feathers, but that's a minor detail.)
Authority likes to use authority. It wouldn't surprise me if the term "excessive force" began with Government.
What an outrage! When my wife and I were traveling across the country, we stopped in Bonner's Ferry. The road to get up the hill is called Ruby Creek Road. We talked to people who witnessed the massacre. BAD TASTE for government in Bonner's Ferry! For example, in Idaho, if you actually call the sheriff, THEY WILL NOT STEP FOOT ON YOUR PROPERTY unless you come to the line and give them permission! The wrongful death hearing that Randy won was in Bonner's Ferry.
This happened over an ATF scam! From:
https://ammo.com/articles/ruby-ridge-siege-forgotten-history-weaver-family-atf-standoff-militia
The ATF claims that in 1989, Faderley purchased two illegally shortened shotguns from Randy Weaver. However, Weaver disputes this, saying that the shotguns he sold Faderley were entirely legal and were shortened after the fact. The notes from the case show that Faderley purchased the guns and showed Weaver where to shorten them, which would constitute illegal entrapment. What’s more, the government preyed on the destitute nature of the Weavers, who lived in a small cabin in the woods with no electricity or running water.
In June 1990, Faderley’s cover was blown. It was then that the ATF reached out to Weaver, stating that they had evidence he was dealing illegal firearms. They told him they would drop all charges if he would agree to become their new informant regarding the investigation of the Aryan Nations groups in the area. Weaver refused.
To coerce him into changing his mind, the Feds staged a stunt where a broken down couple were at the side of the road. Weaver stopped to help them and was handcuffed, thrown face down in the snow and arrested. He had to post his home as bond. Still he refused to become a federal informant.
To coerce him into changing his mind, the Feds staged a stunt where a broken down couple were at the side of the road. Weaver stopped to help them and was handcuffed, thrown face down in the snow and arrested. He had to post his home as bond. Still he refused to become a federal informant.
The irony of the federal government’s desire to obtain informants within the Aryan Nations is that different branches of federal law enforcement and intelligence gathering occupied five of the six key positions in the organization. This means that the Aryan Nations were effectively a government-run shop, with agents spying on each other to ensure the integrity of an investigation – into an organization almost entirely run by the federal government.
Thanks for that big comment.
David Gottfried, Assistant General Counsel Gottfried is an instructor at the FBI Academy:
"Proactively identifying criminal activity in its infancy raises unique concerns. Can law enforcement officials exploit an individual’s mere desire to kill tens of thousands of innocent people and even facilitate the commission of the crime right up until the last second, controlling the unfolding events to ensure that the perpetrators remain unaware they are dealing with undercover agents? Where is the line between an individual’s thoughts and desires and criminal activity?
The answer to these questions requires an understanding of an important legal principle—entrapment. Prosecutors will attempt to refute claims of entrapment in the courtroom, but, actually, cases are won or lost in the planning stages of the investigation. In other words, law enforcement officers play a critical role in conducting an investigation in a manner that prevents the successful assertion of entrapment. The consequence of a successful entrapment defense—the acquittal of an otherwise guilty defendant—is unacceptable. Understanding the contours of the entrapment defense and factoring this into the planning phases of an investigation can make the difference between a successful attack on the government’s case and a guilty plea.
Certain investigative techniques used by law enforcement raise the likelihood of the assertion of an entrapment defense. Perhaps, the highest probability of an entrapment defense arises in undercover operations. Law enforcement agencies need not shy away from using undercover operations, but they must structure them carefully. Terrorist recruits susceptible to undercover agents also will be susceptible to real terrorists. This shows the importance of undercover agents recruiting these individuals first. Executed properly, undercover operations—even those in which law enforcement provides both the means and the opportunity for an individual to succeed in committing a “terrorist act”—are entrapment proof. This article examines the history of the concept of entrapment and demonstrates the importance of structuring an investigation in anticipation of an entrapment defense..."
https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/legal-digest/legal-digest-avoiding-the-entrapment-defense-in-a-post-911-world
While pursuing my criminal justice degree I decided to take a para legal course thinking it would be interesting, that and the entire class were all girls. I last until the first exam then quit and none the girls would have anything to do me even being the stud I was! Studying Law is serious book work, fuck that!
We can hope that there's a course in Common Sense :)
Now that I'm retired and having time to think and continplate, study does consume much of my daily activities un appreciation I've since developed .
Studying, walking on the beach, and watching foreign movies would be a good way for me to die.
Interesting. Other examples. The FBI involvement in the alleged kidnapping plot of Gov. Whitmer is pretty murky. A few years ago, I believe over $5 MILLION was spent to "catch" an Amish farmer in PA selling milk in Maryland.
I read about the Amish milk 'scandal' last month so assumed it was recently.
I do not believe that the USA will find its footing until the CIA and FBI (and Homeland Security) are dismantled.
Agencies not in the Constitution run amok
Tis the way of power, as always. Constitutions are a mirage.
OK, I suppose if you do an hour or two a day, like this, you can bang quite a few out.
If I were a wishful thinker, it would take "an hour or two".
Yeah, it would be all too easy to overwhelm yourself.